Those who have been hanging around here for a long time know that I have said the DHPOS would never have a time clock feature. In fact this is in the FAQ...
TIME CLOCK
There will never be a time clock feature in the POS program. This is my own personal decision. I do not want software of mine to run the life of others. I do not want anyone to be a slave to my software worried about being 30 seconds late or 3 minutes early. I know many people who have to put up with this and I will not write software to put people through this. Many people have told be that I am crazy about this and they are probably correct but it is my own personal choice.
However due to serious threats on my life I am beginning to reconsider. Plus there are stores, like kioks in malls, where there usually are no managers on duty and the employees run wild. So, what to do?
The idea is to come up with some sort of time clock but in such a way that the anal retentive manager type cannot go nuts and make his employee's lives a living hell.
So my idea is to have a time clock that is only accurate to the nearest 5 minutes or possibly 1/10 of an hour or even 1/4 of an hour. This means that if you are 2 minutes late and have a total jerk for a boss that he will have to be a jerk about something else. However if you are a time challenged employee you cannot be too late or too early or you will be screwed by Mr. Jerkguy.
Is this a compromise we can all live with? Any suggestions?
The dreaded "time clock" feature.
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Dale Harris
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Last edited by Dale Harris on Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Dale
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dave garbe
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some thoughts
Being one of those owners of carts in malls where the employees often run crazy...
Depending on the mall management company's predisposition toward a**hole-ness, a cart owner can be fined hefty sums for employees who do not open the store on time. A great example is the Mall of America. If my employees do not open the store by precisely 10 AM (and I mean precisely), I am fined $137.50 for that day. My point in illustrating this is to show that sometimes it's not the owner/manager that is the jerk and may have VERY real concerns for needing to know EXACTLY what time an employee showed up. We use external timeclocks and timecards for staff mostly to prove they should NOT deserve the fine from the mall. Including an accurate time clock feature in DHPOS would be a very nice space saver since there isn't a lot of room on some carts for extra equipment.
My $.02
dave
Depending on the mall management company's predisposition toward a**hole-ness, a cart owner can be fined hefty sums for employees who do not open the store on time. A great example is the Mall of America. If my employees do not open the store by precisely 10 AM (and I mean precisely), I am fined $137.50 for that day. My point in illustrating this is to show that sometimes it's not the owner/manager that is the jerk and may have VERY real concerns for needing to know EXACTLY what time an employee showed up. We use external timeclocks and timecards for staff mostly to prove they should NOT deserve the fine from the mall. Including an accurate time clock feature in DHPOS would be a very nice space saver since there isn't a lot of room on some carts for extra equipment.
My $.02
dave
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FormicaFun :-)
You're not serious...
Wow, I thought I'd never see the day...
Well, here's my opinion...
Least I'm not mistaken, some states require that you either record time broken down by the minute, or 100ths of a hour. (IE 1.50 = 1:30). My company opts for the 100th of a hour. Not only is it the most accurate, it saves a step on the payroll dept. As far as the a**hole managers, that's more often found in large chain retailers who have a corp office breathing down their neck to strive for perfection....not so often in the smaller retail outlets...that we cater to with this software. Plus, just because you associates get to work at 9:30, doesn't always mean the store will open at 10.
Plus, you're really not creating a payroll type system here, all your timeclock really needs to do is record punches. You'd be opening a can of worms that would pale those of POS if you were to go all-encompasing on the payroll. There are so many quirky laws, and needs that vary from state to state, and country to country. Leave that to a payroll accountant. What I think should come is like an option on the "Main Menu", enter your pin, then choose from "Clock In", "Break Out", "Break In", "Meal Out", "Meal In" and "Clock Out". You could offer the option to print a time slip at the end of the shift....with the clock out punch, or at the end of the pay week. Of course, not everyone uses the same pay week. Some companies follow the calendar (Sun-Sat), others go Mon-Sun, my company goes Wed-Tues. Yeah, I know, sounds odd, but that when our sales begin/end....and Mon/Tues are our slowest days of the week, so if we need to cut hours it's easier to do so on Mon/Tues than say Fri/Sat/Sun.
Another thing to consider is that OSHA defines a 'meal' as non-interupted 30 minutes. One way to ensure that we take our full 30 minutes at work, the time clock won't allow us to clock back in from lunch early. Yeah, kinda sounds crazy....not letting people take short lunches...but if you were to have your payroll audited, you can be fined if associates don't take their full meal.
Final note, editing punches. There should be an option, password protected, of course, where a manager can go in and edit punches, or insert punches where necessary. Let's face it, we're all human, and we sometimes forget to clock in, or out, or get delayed with a customer, therefore making our meal longer than it should have been. Mangers should be able to edit the punch, or insert missing punches to the correct time. This ofcourse, should have the ability to be tracked..... in other words, listing the previous punch (if applies), next to/under the adjusted punch, and who adjusted it. That way, you're still able to keep everything under control....yet allow for life to happen.
I guess this was closer to my 4¢. LOL
-Ryan :-)
Well, here's my opinion...
Least I'm not mistaken, some states require that you either record time broken down by the minute, or 100ths of a hour. (IE 1.50 = 1:30). My company opts for the 100th of a hour. Not only is it the most accurate, it saves a step on the payroll dept. As far as the a**hole managers, that's more often found in large chain retailers who have a corp office breathing down their neck to strive for perfection....not so often in the smaller retail outlets...that we cater to with this software. Plus, just because you associates get to work at 9:30, doesn't always mean the store will open at 10.
Plus, you're really not creating a payroll type system here, all your timeclock really needs to do is record punches. You'd be opening a can of worms that would pale those of POS if you were to go all-encompasing on the payroll. There are so many quirky laws, and needs that vary from state to state, and country to country. Leave that to a payroll accountant. What I think should come is like an option on the "Main Menu", enter your pin, then choose from "Clock In", "Break Out", "Break In", "Meal Out", "Meal In" and "Clock Out". You could offer the option to print a time slip at the end of the shift....with the clock out punch, or at the end of the pay week. Of course, not everyone uses the same pay week. Some companies follow the calendar (Sun-Sat), others go Mon-Sun, my company goes Wed-Tues. Yeah, I know, sounds odd, but that when our sales begin/end....and Mon/Tues are our slowest days of the week, so if we need to cut hours it's easier to do so on Mon/Tues than say Fri/Sat/Sun.
Another thing to consider is that OSHA defines a 'meal' as non-interupted 30 minutes. One way to ensure that we take our full 30 minutes at work, the time clock won't allow us to clock back in from lunch early. Yeah, kinda sounds crazy....not letting people take short lunches...but if you were to have your payroll audited, you can be fined if associates don't take their full meal.
Final note, editing punches. There should be an option, password protected, of course, where a manager can go in and edit punches, or insert punches where necessary. Let's face it, we're all human, and we sometimes forget to clock in, or out, or get delayed with a customer, therefore making our meal longer than it should have been. Mangers should be able to edit the punch, or insert missing punches to the correct time. This ofcourse, should have the ability to be tracked..... in other words, listing the previous punch (if applies), next to/under the adjusted punch, and who adjusted it. That way, you're still able to keep everything under control....yet allow for life to happen.
I guess this was closer to my 4¢. LOL
-Ryan :-)
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Dale Harris
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Do you want it?
Gee, there sure does not seem to be as much passion for this feature as I was led to expect. I guess that not many people want a time clock feature of any kind.
If I am wrong about this how about telling me so.
If I am wrong about this how about telling me so.
Dale
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FormicaFun :-)
...guess you read that wrong.
Dale,
I think the TimeClock feature is a GREAT idea, and should be added to POS. I just think that we should define the line of what it will/won't do before it leaves the drawing board...only to keep the list of features for it from matching if not exceeding the list for requests for features for POS.
If added, the time clock (in my humble opinion) should be kept simple, and be just a time clock reporting system. Shows when associates punch in/out, go to/from breaks and meals, have the ability to edit/add punches for when 'life' happens and an associate either forgets to 'hit the clock' or is needed by a customer and is delayed in 'hitting the clock', calculate the total hours for the day and week/two weeks depending on the pay period that your company uses, and be able to report them to both the associate and the mgmt. Everything else, be it vacation hours earned/redeemed, overtime, pay rates, taxes due, etc.... should be left to actuall payroll software. There are far to many laws that vary from state to state, and country to country as far as how payroll is reported, paid, distributed, etc... for that can of worms to be opened.
Of course the question will then be asked... will you be able to access this from any computer on the network, or just one? Would be nice if it would follow the POS network, and you could clock in/out from any terminal....but I'm sure that's easier said than done.
So yeah, the timeclock is a good idea...atleast I think so.
-Ry :-)
I think the TimeClock feature is a GREAT idea, and should be added to POS. I just think that we should define the line of what it will/won't do before it leaves the drawing board...only to keep the list of features for it from matching if not exceeding the list for requests for features for POS.
If added, the time clock (in my humble opinion) should be kept simple, and be just a time clock reporting system. Shows when associates punch in/out, go to/from breaks and meals, have the ability to edit/add punches for when 'life' happens and an associate either forgets to 'hit the clock' or is needed by a customer and is delayed in 'hitting the clock', calculate the total hours for the day and week/two weeks depending on the pay period that your company uses, and be able to report them to both the associate and the mgmt. Everything else, be it vacation hours earned/redeemed, overtime, pay rates, taxes due, etc.... should be left to actuall payroll software. There are far to many laws that vary from state to state, and country to country as far as how payroll is reported, paid, distributed, etc... for that can of worms to be opened.
Of course the question will then be asked... will you be able to access this from any computer on the network, or just one? Would be nice if it would follow the POS network, and you could clock in/out from any terminal....but I'm sure that's easier said than done.
So yeah, the timeclock is a good idea...atleast I think so.
-Ry :-)
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Dale Harris
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Features
FormicaFun,
If implimented the time clock feature would indeed be just a simple in/out type of deal. It would be possible for someone with the master password to make a change and it would be possible to view the original "punch" and the correction with the ID of the person making the correction.
Actually the POS program is written so that the difference between making a file LOCAL or GLOBAL is only dependant on which SUB you use to open the file so making the time clock GLOBAL is no problem at all.
BTW, in order to punch in and out each employee would have to enter their PIN number even if the register otherwise does not use PIN numbers.
If implimented the time clock feature would indeed be just a simple in/out type of deal. It would be possible for someone with the master password to make a change and it would be possible to view the original "punch" and the correction with the ID of the person making the correction.
Actually the POS program is written so that the difference between making a file LOCAL or GLOBAL is only dependant on which SUB you use to open the file so making the time clock GLOBAL is no problem at all.
BTW, in order to punch in and out each employee would have to enter their PIN number even if the register otherwise does not use PIN numbers.
Dale
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FormicaFun :-)
Well, that's good.
Yeah, the PIN idea is a really good one, and I'm glad to hear that making the program global wouldn't be a problem.
I look forward to seeing how this develops.
-Ry :-)
I look forward to seeing how this develops.
-Ry :-)
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Robert_Nel
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Time Clock great idea
Hi , I pay my bar staff by the hour, I think a time clock is a great idea
Robert Nel
Robert Nel
Robert R Nel
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Dale Harris
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Features
Well it seems as though "apathy" seems to be winning in the poll for the time clock.
Many times I write the documentation for a new feature before I write the code. It helps to write the code if I know what it is supposed to do. Below is the proposed documentation for a time clock feature.
Assuming that I will actually create this feature, now (before I write the code) would be a swell time to make suggestions.
TIME CLOCK
When employees enter the "Associates" option from the POS.EXE main menu on any register on the network they will ask if they want to access the time clock function and will be prompted for their PIN number. This will happen even if PIN numbers are not used by any other part of the program.
After entering the PIN number the employee will be able to view the week's time stamps like so...
<pre> 12. DALE H.
CURRENT TIME 12:02:31
WEEK ENDS ON 10-22-2005
IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT
SUN 10:00 | 12:03 | 12:18 | 14:20 | 14:50 | 16:20 | 16:35 | 18:30
MON | | | | | | |
TUE 09:28 | 12:00 | 12:15 | 13:26 | 13:56 | 15:42 |[15:57]| 18:01
WED 09:31 | | | | | | |
THU | | | | | | |
FRI | | | | | | |
SAT | | | | | | |
[INSERT] = Correct entry [ESC] = Quit. </pre>
Time stamps that are in brackets are management corrections.
The employee may use the arrow keys to move the light bar only within today's row. If the lightbar is in a position that does not contain a time stamp pressing [TAB] will enter the current time into that position.
If [INSERT] is pressed a manager must enter the "master" or "associates" password along with the manager's PIN number. The manager may then type in the correction anywhere on the screen.. However the original time stamp will be saved no matter how many times it is corrected along with the PIN number of the last manager to make a correction. This means that both the employee and a manager must be present to edit a time stamp.
To set up the time clock you must go to the "Employee setup" feature of the POSCONFG.EXE program and press [F5] = Time clock. You may then set up new time cards or view / print / save existing time cards. To set up a new time card you must enter a start date and end date and tell the program what day of the week the week will begin with. Then you must save the time card.
If you choose to view time cards you must tell the program, by date, which time card you wish to view. You may then choose which employee's time card you wish to view. You may print out individual employee time cards or all times cards that are not blank. Time cards cannot be edited
from the POSCONFG.EXE program.
A printed time card...
<pre> 12. DALE H.
WEEK ENDS ON 10-22-2005
| IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT
SUN | 10:00 | 12:03 | 12:18 | 14:20 | 14:50 | 16:20 | 16:35 | 18:30
MON | | | | | | | |
TUE | 09:28 | 12:00 | 12:15 | 13:26 | 13:56 | 15:42 | | 18:01
EDIT| | | | | | |[15:57]|
BY | | | | | | |ROBERT |
WED | 09:31 | 11:53 | 12:07 | 14:01 | | | |
THU | | | | | | | |
FRI | | | | | | | |
SAT | | | | | | | | </pre>
Saved time cards can be saved in either a text format that can then be loaded into any word processing software or a comma delimited (.CSV) data format that can then be loaded into spreadsheet or database software.
CAUTION. It is important that you do not change the name in a slot of the employee list during the week. Time cards are associated with names when they are created or if a new employee is added. However if a name is changed after the time card is created the time card will still be associated with the old name. New employees must always be added to empty slots in the employee list. Slots in the employee must remain empty for at least a week before being reused, even longer if you create time cards more than a week in advance.
Many times I write the documentation for a new feature before I write the code. It helps to write the code if I know what it is supposed to do. Below is the proposed documentation for a time clock feature.
Assuming that I will actually create this feature, now (before I write the code) would be a swell time to make suggestions.
TIME CLOCK
When employees enter the "Associates" option from the POS.EXE main menu on any register on the network they will ask if they want to access the time clock function and will be prompted for their PIN number. This will happen even if PIN numbers are not used by any other part of the program.
After entering the PIN number the employee will be able to view the week's time stamps like so...
<pre> 12. DALE H.
CURRENT TIME 12:02:31
WEEK ENDS ON 10-22-2005
IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT
SUN 10:00 | 12:03 | 12:18 | 14:20 | 14:50 | 16:20 | 16:35 | 18:30
MON | | | | | | |
TUE 09:28 | 12:00 | 12:15 | 13:26 | 13:56 | 15:42 |[15:57]| 18:01
WED 09:31 | | | | | | |
THU | | | | | | |
FRI | | | | | | |
SAT | | | | | | |
[INSERT] = Correct entry [ESC] = Quit. </pre>
Time stamps that are in brackets are management corrections.
The employee may use the arrow keys to move the light bar only within today's row. If the lightbar is in a position that does not contain a time stamp pressing [TAB] will enter the current time into that position.
If [INSERT] is pressed a manager must enter the "master" or "associates" password along with the manager's PIN number. The manager may then type in the correction anywhere on the screen.. However the original time stamp will be saved no matter how many times it is corrected along with the PIN number of the last manager to make a correction. This means that both the employee and a manager must be present to edit a time stamp.
To set up the time clock you must go to the "Employee setup" feature of the POSCONFG.EXE program and press [F5] = Time clock. You may then set up new time cards or view / print / save existing time cards. To set up a new time card you must enter a start date and end date and tell the program what day of the week the week will begin with. Then you must save the time card.
If you choose to view time cards you must tell the program, by date, which time card you wish to view. You may then choose which employee's time card you wish to view. You may print out individual employee time cards or all times cards that are not blank. Time cards cannot be edited
from the POSCONFG.EXE program.
A printed time card...
<pre> 12. DALE H.
WEEK ENDS ON 10-22-2005
| IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT
SUN | 10:00 | 12:03 | 12:18 | 14:20 | 14:50 | 16:20 | 16:35 | 18:30
MON | | | | | | | |
TUE | 09:28 | 12:00 | 12:15 | 13:26 | 13:56 | 15:42 | | 18:01
EDIT| | | | | | |[15:57]|
BY | | | | | | |ROBERT |
WED | 09:31 | 11:53 | 12:07 | 14:01 | | | |
THU | | | | | | | |
FRI | | | | | | | |
SAT | | | | | | | | </pre>
Saved time cards can be saved in either a text format that can then be loaded into any word processing software or a comma delimited (.CSV) data format that can then be loaded into spreadsheet or database software.
CAUTION. It is important that you do not change the name in a slot of the employee list during the week. Time cards are associated with names when they are created or if a new employee is added. However if a name is changed after the time card is created the time card will still be associated with the old name. New employees must always be added to empty slots in the employee list. Slots in the employee must remain empty for at least a week before being reused, even longer if you create time cards more than a week in advance.
Dale
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dave garbe
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time card feature
I would like to see each day's total hours and minutes shown (expressed as hours.hundredths) in a Total column, and the Total column summed for the duration of the timecard.
Thanks for considering adding the feature. It's a 'nice to have' feature, but important nonetheless.
Dave
Thanks for considering adding the feature. It's a 'nice to have' feature, but important nonetheless.
Dave
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anwoke8204
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time cards
I also think that a week to date feature would be nice so we they can see if they are over on hours or see the total hours worked so far this week. I know of several companies that if a employee reaches a certian amount of hours that they get sent home, I will never do this but I would like to be able to keep track of hours.
Andrew Stevens
Andrew Stevens
Andrew Stevens
Rooksystems/Clearwater Inc.
Rooksystems/Clearwater Inc.
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FormicaFun :-)
Ok....my suggestion...
Dale,
I like the format concept. I'm assuming that the | | |'s will all be aligned in the program?
One thing to consider. Instead of the "in/out/in/out" headers, will you consider this? Assoicates are paid for breaks, but not meals...so why not change the headers, by say adding another line above them, so it'll look something like this
SFT | BRK | BRK | MEAL | MEAL | BRK | BRK | SFT
IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT
That way you can sepreate what they're doing, and in theory caluclate their hours more efficently?
Maybe have the time card printout:
Jane Doe
10/01/2005 to 10/07/2005
10/01/2005
SFT IN 08:00
BRK OUT 10:25
BRK IN 10:50
MEAL OUT 13:00
MEAL IN 13:50
BRK OUT 15:00
BRK IN 15:25
SFT OUT 17:00
HOURS 08.50
10/02/2005
SFT IN 10:00
BRK OUT 12:25
BRK IN 12:50 E27
ORIG 00:00
SFT OUT 16:00
HOURS 04.00
TOTAL HOURS 12.50
The E27 = 'Edited by' associate 27.
ORIG = Origional<sp?> punch, in this case, Jane forgot to clock back in from break.
I'm just concerned how the time card in the same format as the screen will fare on 40 collumn printers.
Anywho....just a thought. I'll try to make it to chat tonight.
TTYL,
-Ry :-)
I like the format concept. I'm assuming that the | | |'s will all be aligned in the program?
One thing to consider. Instead of the "in/out/in/out" headers, will you consider this? Assoicates are paid for breaks, but not meals...so why not change the headers, by say adding another line above them, so it'll look something like this
SFT | BRK | BRK | MEAL | MEAL | BRK | BRK | SFT
IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT | IN | OUT
That way you can sepreate what they're doing, and in theory caluclate their hours more efficently?
Maybe have the time card printout:
Jane Doe
10/01/2005 to 10/07/2005
10/01/2005
SFT IN 08:00
BRK OUT 10:25
BRK IN 10:50
MEAL OUT 13:00
MEAL IN 13:50
BRK OUT 15:00
BRK IN 15:25
SFT OUT 17:00
HOURS 08.50
10/02/2005
SFT IN 10:00
BRK OUT 12:25
BRK IN 12:50 E27
ORIG 00:00
SFT OUT 16:00
HOURS 04.00
TOTAL HOURS 12.50
The E27 = 'Edited by' associate 27.
ORIG = Origional<sp?> punch, in this case, Jane forgot to clock back in from break.
I'm just concerned how the time card in the same format as the screen will fare on 40 collumn printers.
Anywho....just a thought. I'll try to make it to chat tonight.
TTYL,
-Ry :-)
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Dale Harris
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Calculating
Actually I had purposely decided to not calculate the time used or why the person had left. I can think of many ways to calculate the time. Breaks paid or not. Lunch paid or not. Time before and / or after scheduled time paid or not. Plus no matter how many options I offer someone would tell me, "That's not the way I do so you have to add this."
So I have decide to just collect the data and you can figure out the time worked any way you want. You can even tranport the time cards to a spreadsheet and use that.
So I have decide to just collect the data and you can figure out the time worked any way you want. You can even tranport the time cards to a spreadsheet and use that.
Dale
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dave garbe
- Occasional Poster
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this is going to sound snotty and ungrateful, but...
Under the circumstances of your decision to NOT include any rudimentary totals or summaries, I would think it's a better choice to just NOT do the feature. I mean if it doesn't improve on anything...why bother? I'd just choose to keep the timecards and clocks I already use and continue manually adding them up. If the feature doesn't improve on any aspect of time-keeping, and only keeps time without the benefit of adding it up at the end of a day or period, I'd rather not have it. Better that you used the limited space left in POS.exe to do something more useful to more people. As currently described, this feature wouldn't be all that useful.
I will change my vote to "I will never use this feature" as it is now described. End of snotty and ungrateful comments.
dave
I will change my vote to "I will never use this feature" as it is now described. End of snotty and ungrateful comments.
dave
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Dale Harris
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Great
Dave,
Great. I had serious misgivings about this feature anyway. I have run my key shop for the last 36 years without a time clock and it has functioned just fine. So if most others agree with you I'll just drop it.
BTW, Since I had intended this feature to use the same separate program file as the timer program (TIMER.EXE) it would have taken minimal coding in the POS.EXE program file to accomodate this feature.
Great. I had serious misgivings about this feature anyway. I have run my key shop for the last 36 years without a time clock and it has functioned just fine. So if most others agree with you I'll just drop it.
BTW, Since I had intended this feature to use the same separate program file as the timer program (TIMER.EXE) it would have taken minimal coding in the POS.EXE program file to accomodate this feature.
Dale
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