pos for pocket pp

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chilewillie
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Post by chilewillie » Mon May 10, 2004 11:21 pm

Johnathan,
As I said....I think perhaps there are more of us out here than you suspect that would find PPC functionality for POS incredibly useful. This is not the same as saying that DOS on a pocket PC is easy or perfect. Useful was the word. My comment was directed at the statements made that 'very few people want it to happen at all' and 'I can't see much use in running POS on a device such as this'. The usefulness of programs such as POS are only limited by limited imaginations. No one is disputing that putting POS on a Pocket PC is easy. This thread started with the question 'Is it possible?' The answer to this is yes. Is it easy? Of course not...but that doesn't make it unuseful or necessarily a 'terrible idea'. Writing the code for POS itself was I am sure a difficult and time consuming task, but if these factors were the determining issue, we wouldn't have POS in the first place.

crocker

pos for pocket pc cost

Post by crocker » Tue May 11, 2004 12:15 am

Hi
Dale what wood it cost to get for pocket pc?

Thank You!!!

P.S. God Loves You And Have A Good Day!!!

Jonathan

Post by Jonathan » Tue May 11, 2004 12:09 pm

chilewillie, I don't think it's useless, but the problem is that none of us that provide support (generally Dale, Andrew, myself, and a several others) on this forum and in chat really know how to do it. If someone was to do it and write up detailed instructions on how, that would be another thing. I don't have a pocket PC... I do have a palm top, which is based on similar concepts, but it's not capable of running any of the available DOS emulators.

Another big limitation is the size of the screen... POS uses a standard DOS window, sized at 640x200 pixels, and divided into 80x25 cells, each of which can hold a single character. Most pocket PC screens are not capable of displaying a 640x200 screen, although some can emulate the 80x25 cells, which works. My palm top has a 480x240 screen, so maybe a device like this would work fairly well.

What it comes down to, is we're not sure how to make it work... if someone figures it out, thats great. Maybe someone will. If at some point I aquire a pocket PC, I might be tempted to give it a try. Until then... well, maybe someone will come up with something.

chilewillie
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Post by chilewillie » Tue May 11, 2004 1:22 pm

Jonathan,
Thanks for your well considered response. I appreciate more than I can say those of you who donate your time, energy, and talents towards producing and supporting software such as POS. Perhaps there is someone else out there who does have the skills and interest in working on such a project if the current team does not wish to tackle it. However, the first thing to establish is whether there is sufficient desire or need for a pocket PC version (and I think that a portable POS version is where the need lies, not that the app must necessarily fit a particular format like pocket PC). I think that perhaps the desire and need does exist and that it is important that we all be careful about making unsupported statements about the need or usefulness of such.
Regards,
Joe Willis aka chilewillie

smckane
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Post by smckane » Tue May 11, 2004 3:39 pm

With the prevalence of the .NET languages and their native support on modern PPCs, and the fact that POS is a QBasic program, a better solution may not be a port but a rewrite of the software for that platform.

Personally, I would love a version of POS that would run in the OPL language (hence on my Symbian devices, which network with my PC via Bluetooth). I could do stock takes from the shop floor, look up a price when a customer accosted my half way down an aisle, receive goods at the loading door paperlessly. The uses of PortablePOS are immense. However the challenge is that which we all aknowledge - Dale programs in QBasic, we all know and love the POS that we use, and this is not easily transferred to other mediums than Microsoft OS IBM Compatibles (as they used to be called).

However, if portaPOS were created, what language could Dale use that would make us all happy? QBasic is out. The .NET family is fine for PPCs, but what about Palm users, or me and my Symbian devices? How about Java? But then neither of those would support DOS so what about the existing users? AAARGGHHH! I've got a headache, and I'm not even programming it!

To conclude (for now :-) )- lots of us want portable POS. If it were in a new language then imagine all the features we could get Dale to add - native barcode printing support for shelf edge labels and reduced stickers, BOGOF (buy one get one free) type offers, multiple language support, cross platform support - it could even include a spell checker, just for me :-)

Do I want portaPOS? Yes. Do I expect Dale to make it for me for free? Nope.

Stewart

PS - If it gets made - I called it portaPOS first!

Jonathan

Post by Jonathan » Tue May 11, 2004 7:52 pm

When you get right down to it, DOS is one of the most portable of languages. DOS emulators exist for almost every OS in existance, with varying degrees of compatability for POS and other DOS programs.

Some of you may remember the "browser POS" that used to be linked to from Dales site. That was one of the most interesting setups I've ever had the pleasure of putting together, but it has proven painfully hard to reconstruct. That was actually POS running in a DOS session, emulated on a Linux machine, which then exported it's screen across the internet and into a web browser. It may be much more significant, however, as with the current network version of POS, the browser POS could become just another register, accesible from any java capable browser... which could very well include browsers on pocket PC's. The concept is fairly sound, although the screen resolution issue comes up once again.

Here is yet another alternative: many of the people who have requested to be able to use POS on a pocket PC have done so because it would be helpful for inventory control, and similar functions. Changes to the stock table, and things like that, could potentially be done by a program other than POS designed to run on the pocket PC (or other target platform).

Making a cross-platform version of POS, capable of running on a large variety of hardware and operating systems, sounds good in theory. The problem is that doing so requires a skilled team of programmers, not just one guy doing it in his spare time. The reasons behind this go far beyond just the programming language... extending into the hardware available to each and every target machine. Pocket PC's have smaller screens, less memory, and different interfaces to external hardware. Palms use a different OS with different calls to the operating system to accomplish basic tasks. So, you need at least 3 versions, each one with the ability to detect things like the presence of a keyboard and mouse, and the screen size.

I think it comes down to one simple thought. POS is and does many things... this is not one of them. The best option that I can see is to make use of compatible hardware, which is pretty much anything with an x86 compatible processor and a 640x200 or better resolution. If someone comes up with some breakthrough method of making POS work properly on a pocket PC, than that would be great as well, but it probably won't be me :)

Jonathan Simpson

chilewillie
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Post by chilewillie » Tue May 11, 2004 11:30 pm

Making a cross-platform version of POS, capable of running on all the current portable devices can be accomplished by using an OS extention like AppForge Crossfire http://www.appforge.com/. See the PC Mag review at http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1572011,00.asp. Crossfire allows you to program with Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0 or .NET and run the app on Symbian, Pocket PC, and Palm platforms using the same code base. Of course it does mean rewriting POS in VB or .NET. Easy for me to say, but I don’t think that it is as difficult of a project as it may appear at first glance. If I had the time and talent, I would consider taking on it on myself, but I don't and am sure that there are others out there who could do a much better and faster job than I could. With .NET/VB and the Crossfire piggyback it could probably be done by a single talented programmer. Either way, this is a subject that is food for thought.
Regards,
Joe Willis
http://www.cascada.net

Jonathan

Post by Jonathan » Wed May 12, 2004 8:14 am

chilewillie,
Thats quite interesting, and I think I will have to look into it :)

I would have to say, however, from experience, that moving from quickbasic to visual basic is a big step. Aside from losing the ability to run POS on DOS, it would also take a huge amount of time to reproduce the program that already exists. Let me put this into context...

Last year, I was given the task of moving a medium sized program between two BASIC programming languages which were supposed to be about 95% compatible: MSbasic for unix and quickbasic. The program was about 20,000 lines, in numerous source files, and the task took me over 3 weeks. Thats 3 weeks of working on it for 8 hours a day, including saturdays, which comes out to about 140 hours. Now that is a bit different, because I was working with code I had never seen before. In Dales case, it would be working with code he had written. However, Visual Basic .NET is roughly 15% compatible with unchanged Quickbasic code (Visual Studio Magazine). I think that speaks for itself.

My point is, while such a project is possible, it is not an easy thing. Aside from the tremendous amount of time needed to recreate the functionality of POS in visual basic, if Dale was doing it he would first need to learn VB. And remember, Dale, like the rest of us, has a real job :)

At one time I started working on a visual basic version of POS while in college, with a few students from the programming class volunteering some time. They did most of the programming while I just kept things on track. It never really went anywhere, but most of the files used by POS can be dropped right in to visual basic, so maybe someone else could pick up where we left off.

Jonathan Simpson

chilewillie
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Post by chilewillie » Wed May 12, 2004 11:36 am

Jonathan,

Thanks for the reality check. I am somewhat familar with Visual Basic but have never taken a crack at QBasic. I was under the mistaken impression that these two basic languages were far better than 15% compatible.

My reason for commenting on this subject is because it is evident that portable devices have taken the world by storm and I don't think they are going away. The popularity of the things speak for themselves as to their utility. POS programs on portable devices seem to be more and more common. Seeing these devices in the hands of stock checkers, restaurant waiters, etc. is a normal event. DH POS is a fantastic program, not simply because it is free, but because it is extremely well designed -both highly functional and easy to learn and use. To extend its functionally to portable devices would seem to be a natural evolution for it.

I hope that I am not giving anyone the impression that I expect Dale to drop his life, learn a new programming language and dive into a POS rewrite. I enjoy forum discussions because they are a wonderful medium for expressing ideas that (when tempered with thoughtful debate) can on occasion bloom into something with real merit. So, I will leave it at that and we will see what may come of it.
Regards,
Joe Willis
http://www.cascada.net

Jonathan

Post by Jonathan » Wed May 12, 2004 12:36 pm

chilewillie, glad to hear it. I agree, discussing the topic has it's own advantages. I plan on doing a little research on the mobile platforms available this weekend, just to see whats out there. If I find anything suitable, I'll let it be known.

VB.NET is barely compatible with VB 6. Code written for VB6 usually needs some pretty big modifications to be usuable in .NET, and VB6 is 7 versions of Basic away from QB 7.1 by itself! By 15% compatible, i mean that 15% or less of the code in POS could be used as is... most of it would have to be completely rewritten and we would lose the wonderful simplicity of the DOS version in the process.

If we are all lucky, someone out there has a x86 compatible pocket PC with a nice big screen, for a decent price. I still think a tablet PC is better suited for use as a mobile register, but stock keeping would certainly be something the pocket PC could be useful for.

Jonathan Simpson

crocker

pos for pocket pc cost

Post by crocker » Wed May 12, 2004 5:49 pm

Hi
You do not need a pocket pc to make pos?

The language is free from http://www.pocketpc.com

If Jonathan S. has the code for pos he cood put it tin vb for pocket pc.

Thank You!!!

P.S. God Loves You And Have A Good Day!!!

Jonathan

Post by Jonathan » Wed May 12, 2004 6:06 pm

This version of the Pocket PC 2003 SDK allows you to create Pocket PC 2003 applications using eMbedded Visual C++ 4.0 (with Service Pack 3), and applications written in C# or Visual Basic .NET using Visual Studio .NET 2003.


Ummm... yeah, perhaps the SDK download is free, but VB .NET is a couple hundred dollars... certainly not free.

Guest

Post by Guest » Wed May 12, 2004 6:58 pm

Crocker - you need a PPC so that you can test it and see how it looks. Yes, for that you can use an emulator program, but it really isn't the same

Chilewillie - have a go at coding in QBasic, it's easier to code than VB for many simple things, though naturally limited in many respects (output & display to name two) - it is getting on in years now :-)

I completely agree, that portaPOS would be a great idea, but the tranistion would possibly leave behind many existing users. Whilst it is easy for us to say upgrade or get left behind (which for the effort on Dale's part you may have to), it's that attitude that makes us all hate Bill Gates so much :lol:

As to the translation to .NET, it's not just language changes that need to be worked around, an added problem is that VB uses a completely different display structure to QBasic - where as now Dale writes code for what he wants a window to appear as, VB uses the form structure (where you create and position things on the window (in theory)). IMHO 15% compatibility is a bit high, but hey, I may be wrong there too :-)

Stewart

PS - Anybody else think the cost of Microsoft programming languages is vastly inflated for folks like us??? :D

Jonathan

Post by Jonathan » Fri May 14, 2004 12:32 pm

I just spent the last 5 hours trying to get POS to work on my palmtop, the Cassiopiea A-11. It gets as far as the "Wait while program reads some files" and then crashes, I think becuase of memory issues. Unfortunatly, my palmtop has only 4mb of memory and it's all I have to test on, unless someone would be kind enough to send me a better one :)

Anyway, I'll keep trying

Jonathan Simpson

Alan
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DH-POS works on Pocket PC

Post by Alan » Sun May 16, 2004 10:24 am

Hi folks,

Just tried PocketDOS on my HP iPaq 2210 (Intel 400Mhz,PocketPC 2003)
It runs at a decent speed too!

PocketDOS can reroute data to Serial only (even bluetooth data etc) You could actually beam data to a receiept printer.

Only drawback is that you need to use unit in landscape mode and the characters are VERY small.

Alan

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